Curse

Eldin · Apr 03, 2006, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Nice to see my page noticed (if you look at my user page, proof I'm "Eldin"). That makes you wonder how Goth Gwen jumps from being a Kurzick Child in the Kurzick Settlement to a Luxon Child in the Luxon Settlement so quickly. Then again, she does bear unspeakable power.

Eomer - The effigies look just like Titans. Do you have a screenshot of these mursaat shrines? Also, the Charr worship the Titans/Fire. Mursaat are mainly based on air magic, making it an even slimmer chance for them to be the ones the Charr worship.

The Mursaat know of the prophecy, that says that their race will meet their doom at the hands of the Titans and Chosen. Thusly, they command their worshippers, the White Mantle to not only kill the Chosen to prevent them from freeing the Titans, but also, the souls are channeled into the Soul Batteries, that help keep the Door of Komalie closed (apparently, the door may need a constant stream of souls...you kill the Lich because he is so powerful that his soul is the equivalent of murdering hundreds of thousands of chosen).

anubis_master · Apr 03, 2006, 09:00 PM // 21:00

I think this is how the time thing went. (I based this on the fact that we did speand more time doing each thing. In the middle ages to move your units across your contry would take a month. With fighting the whole way there as we are It would take much longer. Not to metion the many side tracks that we needed to do along the way.)

Per-searing ascolon-1 day

2 years pass when you return from one of ruriks vangraurds patrols.

Post searing ascolon-you are battleing charr right away on your scouting mission north of the wall. After the northern wall is taken all your units must regroup at fort ranik (witch would take some time with charr everywere). Then you go on the offencive and retake the wall. After that you need to go farther north and start attacking and retaking all the land that was lost + citys like rin. (In middle ages attacking and capturing towns took almost 3 months and casltes almost 6 months. so it would have taken longer than you could play in the game.) So id say post-searing ascolon took about 6 months.

north shiverpeaks When you arive at yaks bend id say it took about to weeks for everyone to arive there. Mostly because of getting suplys ready would be a little hard in the shape ascolon is in. Then getting everyone and everything there saftly would be some painsteaking work. Getting across the shiverpeaks would also take a lota bita time. You have to mone about 200 people across the moutain ranges while being attacked by stone summit. There were no big breaks between dwarfen cities so when ever the ascolon people would like to take some time off of hicking. By the time you make it to lions arch it would have been at least 4 months mabey 5.

north Kryta Not much time was spent here. Just finish escorting the refugies then do as the mantle tells you to do. Mabey a month before being sent into the manguuma jungle to chase the shinning blade.

Manguuma jungle This is were the majority to the war is fought and as said before that the mantle had to formulate many plans and for Evennia and Saidra to trust you enough for the ceptor of orr. so mabey 4-5 months.

South kryta The only time spent hear was just enough time to formulate a plan then hit and run with the ceptor of orr.

Around one month spent on the boat it was a long way to the dessert so it may take longer

Dessert This is were the most time was spent To acsend is a big thing. If two races failed and there entire races (elonians and the forgotten) It would take much longer for us to do it. Then to get to glint id say two years. also glint mensions it in her cave that it was around two years.

south shiver peaksYou come you kill then you save your shining blade freinds. But after that you need to repay the dwarfs for helping the refugies over the mountains. as I said be for castle seiges took about 6 months in medival times and thats what thunderhead is a caslte. Although thunder head I thing would have taken 6 months but still around 3. So all that together around 5 months hear.

ring of fire(no not the song)only a few days. There was little time spent planning and once you hit the beached of the mission ring of fire its one steady battle all the way through. In real life there would be no breaks through out that battle. and scince your a few peeps not a army you can sneak around and wouldn't need to bash down the main gate and stuff.

from the beginng of the game-4 years and 11 months
from post searing-2 years 11 months

kduv889 · Apr 04, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Symeon

Right,

I think the topic of the seasons, and the timeline, would be a good thing to start on. I think Eldin's summary is pretty accurate, and I wouldn't really say anything very different to that myself.
The idea of the adventure advancing through the seasons interests me...however, it doesn't seem to cover everything. It doesn't seem right that we are in fiery Hell's Precipice in the Season of the Scion, the water season...
But those other ones match. Could have meaning, could not.

I also think that SnipiousMax's mention of what is going on in Ascalon with the Charr, and leading on to other things about what has happened to the world while we have moved on, is something we should look at in detail. This is a subject that we don't have much evidence on and must draw our own conclusions based on opinion.

Feel free to dive into the other subjects I mentioned in the first post, though. There's a lot to cover and it will take a good deal of discussion to establish final compromises on all these areas.

kduv889: I hope the conclusions we make in this thread will help you with your novel. Though, feel free to help us make those conclusions

absolutely! the facts on the seasons is already a great step in making the novel more realistic and not so much a fantasy put together in a game format lol. keep em comin guys, i really like how its turning out!
Kduv889

Eldin · Apr 04, 2006, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Where do you people get the "Mursaat are in league with Khilbron" and "Charr Worship Mursaat" ideas?

If the Charr worshipped Mursaat, why do the Titans kill them? I heard you can see Mursaat corpses at some point in Last Day.

Let me convey this to you using simple math:

Prophecy = "The Chosen will free the Titans."

Mursaat + Titans = Mursaat go bye bye.

Mantle Worship Mursaat + Mursaat = "Kill the Chosen so we don't have to fear the Titans being freed."

Khilbron + Scepter = I just want an army of Titans to rule the world with. Nothing more, nothing less.

Seers = We hate Mursaat. We just do. We do not care what happens with the Titans. We just want them dead!
---
And where are these Mursaat shrines you speak of? While going through The Breach I found this:

Sure, it looks a bit like a Mursaat, but could that not just be some glyph or something?
---
Back on topic of seasons, perhaps the Bloodstone provides a natural resistance towards the natural flow of the elements over the passage of the year? The Volcano was going to erupt at the end of Hell's I believe simply because of killing the Lich. The Soul Batteries overflowed from such a powerful soul (Lichie's soul), or the stream of Titans being cut off so suddenly simply caused a massive shock within the Door of Komalie, which also spurred on an eruption.

djengo · Apr 05, 2006, 09:14 PM // 21:14

I think they are supposed to represent a mock version of Dwana, look the the images side-by-side, you will know whayt i mean. It seems like charr to desecrate their opponent's gods.

Eldin · Apr 05, 2006, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Ah, possible. Mursaat tentacles are to sticks, but at the same time, and a bit more ethically, Dwayna's wings are to sticks. That's a very good theory about desecrating the Old Gods, djengo.

Teh Monkeys · Apr 06, 2006, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Acording to Eldin's reasoning, the Charr do not worship Dwayna because Dwayna is the patron of Air magic, and Charr worship only fire.

They're probably Mursaat. What the hell else would they be? Someone at Gwonline posed the idea that it could be the Lich, but the Lich did not exist prior to the cataclysm.

djengo · Apr 06, 2006, 03:39 PM // 15:39

I'm saying that the charr are burning mock statues as some kind of phycological warfare with the humans, sure they worship fire, but it might be a symbol that the charr think their fire will eventually consume all. ionno bout you, but i got alot of meaning out of those things (btw, i just got into this posting thing, that one b4 was my first post, ever!)

kduv889 · Apr 06, 2006, 04:56 PM // 16:56

<< Eldin
And where are these Mursaat shrines you speak of? While going through The Breach I found this:

Sure, it looks a bit like a Mursaat, but could that not just be some glyph or something?

-------
<< Kduv889
The shrines i thought they were talking of where the red ones that are in the renditch Courthouse. North of the Nolani academy. try looking there. there are 4 or 5 shrines that are the same format of the ones you see in the Fire Islands, and the southern shiverpeaks.

djengo · Apr 06, 2006, 05:22 PM // 17:22

I think that the shifty-shiny stone things are just there to be pretty. wouldn't sombody in town have somthing to say like "gee, i wonder what those strange stones that were never here before are doing here". Maybe every little thing does not have storyline significance, maybe the designers just wanted to use the shifty shinyness effect somewhere...

anubis_master · Apr 06, 2006, 08:46 PM // 20:46

If you wana know what happens to gwen this explans it in a cosmic sorta way. Make your own conclusion.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...s+gwen&pl=true

kryshnysh · Apr 07, 2006, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Personally, my vote on timelines is way shorter than most others, in the weeks length or so.

Assuming that paces (and times) in game are to scale, one would suggest that just running (with no enemies to fight, but still at a faster pace) would take only a couple hours. Even in the best of shape, this would indicate something of a marathon pace, and maybe 20-30 miles from Ascalon City to Ventari's Refuge... Even at a sprinters pace we're not talking hundreds of miles... Even if times aren't to scale, the assumption works well enough with paces to be within reasonable accuracy. Then you realize that Jiaju Tai in Lion's Arch says that only the greatest sailors dare journey to Cantha...

Glint says your friends won't last the night when you meet her, so you've got less than a day to finish the Ice Caves of Sorrow after getting to Droknar's Forge...

When the Deldrimor Dwarves in the Northern Shiverpeaks say your people (ascalonian refugees) won't last the night in the mountains, sounds to me like at most you can have a few nights in the main towns, but you're not able to spend time camping between each of them. Maybe lots of time staying in the towns preparing for the next step, but if you have to stay in Grooble's Gulch for the night, your people don't seem to be able to handle the higher altitudes between Yak's Bend (or at least the town before Maladar's Fort - Borlis Pass beginning outpost) and Grooble's Gulch too well.

On the other hand, supposedly Rurik headed out to meet with the Deldrimor King in Maladar's Fort three days before you head out! So at least three days pass between the end of Nolani and the beginning of the Borlis Pass mission, probably more.

I can't make them all reconcile without throwing away some of the implied stuff, or sticking with long stops in towns, or some other similar explanation.

And how big is a city here? We're not talking millions, after all, none of the major cities in the middle ages was in the millions. Thousands maybe, millions no (Paris, largest western city in middle ages: quarter million before the black plague). But are we talking tens of thousands? Hundreds of Thousands? Maybe just thousands? I'd guess maybe 10-100 thousand, thats small enough to be really worried about a couple thousand Charr if you think Charr > Human (like Rurik might be presumed to think) and large enough to not worry too much if you think Human > Charr (e.g. Adelbern).

I'm not too sure on how large Ascalon, the Charr army, etc. really was. An army of "many thousand" from the scene at the end of Nolani? Doesn't sound like all that large of an army in middle ages terms. For reference, the Battle of Agincourt had 20-40 thousand troops between the two sides.

I'm starting to lean towards either a small world here, or we have shrunk the farm land down a lot (and/or found a way to be really really productive). Its obviously not realistic in all senses.

Richmuel · Apr 07, 2006, 08:29 AM // 08:29

I prefer to consider Ascalon, Kryta, Orr and such more like states rather than countries or like counties in England. They have their cities and are reasonably large but wouldn't take you more than a couple of days on foot to cross. Also Tyria is only 1 continent not an entire world so its not like trekking round the world, Tyria itself could perhaps be the size of a single country and with all the people you would have to take with you in the mountains Ruriks 3 day journey would make sense. It really depends on what scale Tyria is on.

Also about the statues, if you do the Fires in the Wherever quests where you have to go kill the flame bearers there is no doubting that the staues they burn there are in fact the titans, especially the one that takes place to the east of Ruins of Surmia. So I agree that the statue shown above may just be a thing to deface the old gods. Also the char are relatively dumb beasts and the mursaat I feel would be almost above them as the char are little more than animals and would in my opinion be more likely to attack mursaat than worship them.

djengo · Apr 07, 2006, 03:14 PM // 15:14

This really clears up that "Titan" and "Lich" stuff, i like the lich guy's pants before he goes all... "lvl 30 undead boss that randomly teleports you into lava" (whom my ele {Garr the Closet Boy} finished off with only one monk {who for some unknown reason, had no res...} and himself {used sig} with his badnezz Water Magic) on your ass. I noticed that my water majic owned in that mission, that because things there are fire? well... i was doing 138dmg w/ ice spear and kept spinal shivers on him... so interpret that as you want. i feel this might open some conversations

(3)

Symeon · Apr 07, 2006, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Alright, lots of interesting stuff has been brought up while I've not been here.

The idea of us going through the seasons intrigues me, but...
When you put together the idea of our adventure lasting a year or so, and the order of the seasons, if we start with the fire season (while we're in Ascalon with the Charr) we do not get round to the water season by the end of the Ring of Fire missions. Also, if you go around the whole thing some seasons do not fit with the specific areas and their monsters. It's a brilliant idea, but needs some clarification to get it right - I might try to do that sometime soon. If it can be put together to make sense, then...great!

Concerning the burning wooden structures in the Charr lands...I'm not sure exactly what they are, but the idea of desecrating the old gods sounds good. The Charr definitely don't worship the Mursaat - if they did, surely Saul D'Alessio wouldn't have been able to use the power of the Mursaat to drive the Charr out of Kryta. The Charr are absolutely certainly worshippers of the flame, and the titans are their apparent gods.

I'm interested in the theory of the Vizier's involvement in the Charr invasion. It makes sense that he would make it happen to drive the Chosen out of Ascalon to send them on the path to free the titans. I think that could be discussed more, and along with it the Vizier's involvement in the rest of the plot.

Another thing that I think should be looked at is Glint and the Flameseeker Prophecies. How did all these characters including the Vizier and the Mursaat come to know about Glint's prophecy? Did she really tell them? And if so, what can be said about Glint's motivations?

I think the idea of Glint and the prophecies delves deep into Tyria's history. Glint was created by the gods as the first guardian of the world. But what does she do now? She sits in her cave, makes prophecies in which bad things happen, and tell others about the prophecies to make them happen! Yes, of course she's very clever to think it all through, but...what kind of guardian is she? And did the gods have anything to do with her actions?

And of course, this links to the whole 'Who is to blame for all the bad things?' question that I mentioned in the first post of this thread. Was it just the Vizier for being pure evil? Was it Glint for not guarding the world and making her prophecies? Or was it the gods for all the problems they left behind in the world?

I'd like to announce here that there will be no new project this week, as this one covers such a large area and I think a good deal of effort should be put into it.

However, Sentao Nugra presented the idea to me of finding the words of the Flameseeker Prophecies in-game...I think that is a good suggestion. I'm sure we can remember various mentions during missions, but we have not recorded exactly what they were. It would be great to piece together the prophecies in their entirety, so we could discuss them further and in more detail in the future. If anyone is interested in trying to do this, let me know.

Also, I think there is a lot of evidence that we can bring in here from in-game that would help in the discussion. Keep looking out for things, and keep the discussion and thoughts coming. Also, be sure to look up things in the lore manual, and elsewhere!

It's good to see lots of interest here, so keep it up. Let's really clear out these mists and cover over the plot holes in the storyline!

Eldin · Apr 07, 2006, 10:26 PM // 22:26

The Flameseeker Prophecies are quite vague. What we know is that they are about someone unleashing the Titans on the world. The few who may know the exact prophecy, or at least more of it than we do:

-Glint
-Meerak The Shouter/Scribe
-The Mursaat
-The White Mantle (surely their masters would tell them of this prophecy that calls for the need to kill the Chosen?)
-The Charr (if the Titans told them, or they found out on their own)
-The Lich
-The Seers

I believe the prophecy INTENDED for the Titans to be freed and the Chosen to stop them...the prophecy intended the players to be tricked by Khilbron...etc. I believe one statement that Meerak says is, "Do not trust the treacherous man...we have been warned!"

This is no doubt Khilbron...maybe Markis as a secondary possibility. Glint knows she must not interfere, and that time will unravel itself.

djengo · Apr 08, 2006, 04:39 PM // 16:39

I think that the flameseeker proficies (w/e, i dun feel like lookin it up) are a kind of purging. in on itself it mostly united Ascalon and Kryta (supposing the Ascalonian king stops being a fatheaded moron and allies with those who offer aliances). made it so that souls did not need to be sacrificed to the gate thing. killed the evil lich guy (I was so mad, so i stabbed him w/ big peices of ice, when we waent all... bad). generally... the proficies did alot more good for tyria that bad; really, i plan to nmake a new character and go through the storyline, while plotting things i hear and see on some web or somthing (and then later i can hand it in as a school project{we always do that stuff}so, everyone wins (v`-')d (i hate my L.A teacher, he treats you like ur 10... i wanna do to him what i did to the vizer...) , i will submit the results of this project

Richmuel · Apr 08, 2006, 05:40 PM // 17:40

I'm not sure anyone in the whole game actually knows the whole stroy about the prophecies or the prophecy must only be half the story that everyone knows. I believe that the prophecy consists of the story that the chosen will unleash the titans, however that is about as much as anyone knows, no one seems to know that the chosen will be the ones to stop it again. If the Lich knew we would have stopped the titans then surely he would have done something about it, and maybe Glint would have told us, or did Glint know the whole picture that maybe the Lich didn't. In my mind I always think the prophecy was about us saving the day in the end rather than the negative aspect of nearly causing the end of Tyria. So it is a mystery to what the prophecy actually says and who in the game knows the whole story.

Eldin · Apr 08, 2006, 06:23 PM // 18:23

It is possible the prophecy had more to do with Tyria, and not just the Titan aspect. Meerak speaks of Rurik being "doomed", and such, so perhaps it tells the tale of our entire journey, or at least much of it?

UPDATE: I just did Hell's with some guildies on my warrior. Quoting Glint, "Long into the Season of the Scion, Tyria is revived again." However, is "long into" now (when we kill the Lich), or after we finish The Titan Source (last titan quest)? No real phrases in that sentence suggest what period of time particularly. I'm going to run around Diessa Lowlands with my wammo and see if I can find any interesting information on the Charr/Titans. It seems to be the most practical area to search for information regarding Charr Culture.

minionman · Apr 09, 2006, 11:46 PM // 23:46

I actually wrote up a story that fills in my versions of the details http://www.theamazonbasin.com/forums...showtopic=8178
I noticed the the mursaat had no backstory to them, so figured I'd add some, as well as writing something from a different point of view.

My take on these:

The seasons simply are equivalent to spring, summer, fall, and winter, the "season of (blank)" and elements were just added to give it a fancy air.

It's never really said what makes the mursaat evil besides killing the chosen. I wonder if the idea is that some mursaat survive, or if they were all at the ring of fire and got annihilated, or if there never really was a plan for them. I do wonder when the mursaat appeared, and what they were doing beforehand.

The dwarves I assume were staying out of the guild wars as they were occuring, and were trading with all the human groups.

As for timing, I figure the desert part took several months, and the jungle part took awhile as well, but the other parts took about as much time as implied in dialogue and such.

The searing seemed disigned to get the charr across the wall, nothing more. My guess is that they easily ran through ascalon after breaking through the wall, but than switched focus to Orr and Kryta, and lost enough of their army in those fights that the ascalons were able to recapture territory and defend themselves o.k. afterwards. The searing itself seems like a one time thing, that probably took lots of planning and preperation, so the charr are unlikely to repeat it for a long time. It would fit with the pattern of the charr waiting awhile, than launching invasions, and the seering was big enough to require a lot of work and materials to do.

It could make sense that Khilbron could have helped the charr to cet of the prophecy, since he does similar things throughout the story, though I personally see it as happening as described, with the Vizier trying to save Orr and goofing up, with the magic doing something with his mind to turn him into a twisted, evil character.